Thursday, November 24, 2005



Some of you may remember that shortly after the battle for Falujah, I posted about the US illegally using napalm, which was banned internationally in 1975. I came across this post on BLONDESENSE today. I thought you might find it very interesting. I sure did!

Currently at THE CHURCH POTLUCK:Meatloaf, Biscuits and Gravy

thanks GWB for the email....imagine my surprise to find a whole page of comments sitting in limbo because I had enabled that silly feature. And I thought maybe it was something I said......
I thought that was probably the case. I know of several people who inadvertantly turned on this feature (or had it turned on for them), the couldn't figure out why nobody was commenting on their blogs!
Wow! Talk about enlightening, no pun intended. This derserves more media attention and public outrage. Thanks for spotting this and sharing.
Ditto - I thought the whole 'chemical weapon' outrage was the normal press hype till I read your link.. Thanks for that.
I double dare you, Bear, to do some research within the views of military men and women who see the great things that have happened since we came into Iraq. I know you'll be tempted to find some disenfranchised soldier who doesn't know why we're in Iraq. However, this could be a great exercise for you to do some real induction. What do the majority of military personnel think of the war, and what achievements have occured. Now, I know I tried this before with you, but you managed somehow, to find some stats to show how much "destruction" we brought to Iraq.

I know this will mean putting aside your gross anti-Bush prejudices, which will be a challenge for you. But, if you are so inclined to support our military, find out what they think about the war.

I'll betcha you can't do it since you're always so busy sharpening your guillotine. But, go ahead...shock me and prove me wrong. You like proving me wrong anyway. Here's your chance.
First, I don't care how many 18 to 22 year old kids think its moral or "cool" to incinerate whole blocks of people Apparently theer are a lot of 18 - 22 year old gis that think it is cool to post pictures of behaded and disembowelled iraqis' too. . a) it's immoral, b) it's illegal under treaties signed by the US.

And while I don't have any contact to speak of wiith regular army, I have a LOT of contact with Natonal Guard and Air force Reserve guys who have spent months, and in some cases a year and a half over there, And they are disillusioned, angry and depressed by what is going on there, not to mention the treatment they are receiving at the hands of the DOD, They are doing the work of the regular army, but not getting treated like regular army. so yeah, most of the soldiers I know are pretty damn disgusted with the whole thing. Of course , most of these are guys in ther late 20's to early 40's... not kid's playing war games.
Gee, you gave up so quickly on me.

How many of your NG and reservist friends is A LOT? Thirty? Fifty? One-hundred? One-thousand? Ten-thousand? Fifty-thousand? You know, the larger the group of particulars, the greater the probability. Did you miss any who had a positive experience there? How many do you think you missed?

I wonder if you prejudiced the study by your statement that a LOT of 18-22 year old gi's love to incinerate whole city blocks of people. Is this accurate? If so, how many gi's would that be? Thirty? Fifty? One-hundred? One-thousand? Ten-thousand? Fifty-thousand?

I was can't do an honest inquiry here. But hey, it's your blogsite; you have an image to maintain.
Man, how can anybody with such a high IQ just fail to get it so badly?

When I was a kid, my dad's mantra was, "I don't care how many people are doing it, it doesn't make it right." I probably heard him say that a thousand times. And you know what, it's true. So I don't care if every single one of the 150,000 troops over there thinks using Napalm (or it's newer, even more deadly cousin, White Pete) is a good idea. That doesn't make it morally acceptable, right, or legal. Using it is immoral, it's illegal, and it is detestable.

My dad and my uncles, and all the men at our church, believed that part of what made us Americans was that we did things because they were right, not because they were expedient. They believed that ideal was what made us special, and not just another country.

Somewhere along the way, America has lost sight of that ideal. I can't count the number of times I have heard people justify torture because "they wouldn't hesitate to do that to us". Bullshit. The standard is do unto others as you would have them do unto you, not do unto others because they would do that to you.

If we are not fighting to protect and promote those values, then what the fuck are we bothering for? Because if we are not, then we are at best, just another country. Or worse, a country so lacking in values it threatens to drag the world down with it.

You know, we used to sing a song in Sunday School about letting our light shine. I don't think the author had the glow of Napalm in mind when they wrote it.
oh year.. I managed, somehow, to find statistics on how much destruction we have wrought in Iraq? You make it sound like it was a difficult job farrowing that out. It wasn't. About a thirty second google search will do the job! It's not exactly a state secret.
As usual, you argue beside the point. YOU made the assertion that a LOT of 18-22 year old GI's are leveling, torching, bombing whole city blocks in Iraq. A LOT of GI's have pictures of decapitated Arabs. YOU made the assertion. I'm looking for numbers; I'm looking for proof. You gave me no proof, and then you pontificate to me on the morality of napalm?

Your tactics are worn out, Bear. You love to make incendiary comments, and then get pissed when I call you on it and make false insinuations. You sound like a student of Harry Reid.
First since the blog was about the use of Napalm... (which after two years of it being the worst kept secret of the war, DOD is finally admitting to.)

Second, since GI's online trading photos of mutilated Iraqis for porn has been all over the news for the last two weeks, I didn't think I would have to spell that out.... But if you want, I can look up a couple of the sites for you, but I should warn you, I've been to a couple of them, and they will turn your stomach. It is truly disgusting.

Perhaps if you got your news someplace besides FUX, you would have been aware of that!
As for how many NG/Air Force reserves I know.. my brother in laws Air Force reserve unit has, between the two Iraq wars, been deployed over there 5 times.

And a large contingent of MP's from the Indiana National Guard has just got back form being deployed for over a year. And are going to be deployed back soon. I work with a number of these guys at the PO. So yeah, I know my share of guys over there.
Okay, so you know your share of guys over there. And, you found some Iraq War porn sites, and you assume I'm some nitwit who doesn't know my ass from a hole in the ground. Fine. But, you still cannot do an honest inquiry. You keep turning this into some moral crusade with your wild assertions. Gee, whataya think? Maybe 50-60% of GI's spread porn, or torch whole city blocks? More than this? Less? Hmmm? You STILL haven't told me how many. You make the assertions but can't back it. If you heard rumors of it, or have anecdotal evidence only, fine. But, you find some obscure examples by scouring the internet, find some truly immoral stuff, find the alleged use of NAPALM, and want to shit-can the whole damn war? The fallacies you propose are legion.

Now I'll just sit back and wait for your ex-cathedra pronouncements. But as you do, you prove to me once again that you cannot do an honest inquiry.
I said they were using it months ago and everyone called me a liar. Now I get to do another "I TOLD YOU SO" post!
Okay first, let's just deal with the "alleged" use of Napalm.. Since the Dept of Defense ADMITS using Napalm, it can hardly be called alleged. They have used napalm on numerous occasions. That is not alleged, that is a fact.

And I have no doubt that many GI's are doing yoeman work trying to improve things there. But the undeniable fact is that we have fucked things up so badly in Iraq there is no no good outcome to be had. You don't have to take my word for it, some of the most hawkish members of Cpngress are saying the same thing.

Second. I don't "scour" the net for obscure sources. Most of the stuff that appears on my site comes from major news outlets, in particular the BBC and NPR.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get around the fact that the use of napalm is immoral, illegal, and unAmerican. So is the trading of war photos for porn, a problem widespread enough that there are currently two seperate investigaitons going, DOD, and Justice, Be assured that the House and Senate will weigh in too. So rather than try to find ways to excuse the behavior, perhaps you could scrounge up enough human decency to be offended, angered and saddened. I'm guessin thats how Jesus would feel.
Bear, you have insinuated that I'm either for the use of napalm, or I'm denying that we have used it. I'm not in favor of using it, I never have been. I do not deny that in war, really bad and disgusting things happen. So, I'm not surprised when things happen as you have shown on your site. Never has any war been conducted with complete purity and dignity. However, I'm against making a hasty conclusion, or painting our GI's with a broad brush. If shit is happening, it's not on a large scale. That doesn't mean I excuse it. I just don't shitcan the entire campaign because of the actions of a small minority.

If we find that immoral or unethical things are happening, to be considered a moral society, we need to stop them at once. You and I agree there. As to your heart, I know that you hate to see these things happen. Where I disagree with you is the extreme conclusions you make.

I'm going to stop for now and defer to you and let you have the last word on this topic. I'll read what you say in order to learn what you mean and keep my big yap shut.
2:11 am... Damn, Sam, your sleeping habits mst be as bad as mine.

I don't believe for a second that All, or even most, GI's are doing evil things in Iraq, I do know that the numbers of are not insignificant either. And you can not blame the average GI for the use of napalm, he has no control over that,

The use of Napalm is clearly a moral and ehtical failure of the US government. And the decision to use ilegal weapons can only come from very high places.. think Rumsfeld and/ or Chaney. And I thought we were fighting this war because we were convinced Saddam had illegal weapons. What kind of hypocrits does that make us?

I am in favor of getting out of Iraq because a) we are doing more harm than good there, and b) because it is doing more harm than good to us. It has ruined our image in most of the world, and left us without a shred of credability in international politics. It has been a disaster for the Iraqi's, it has been a disaster for us, and the quicker we extricate ourselves, the better.
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